Ok - the liner is a winner
"I ordered these for mountain biking and was really unsure about the liner - much thinner than my terry touring shorts. I left a few days after getting these for Moab and brought both pairs. I figured with the Terry guarantee I would find out. I am so happy to report I love them - the shorts are a great length and weight and the liners stay in place and after a couple of pounding hours, they are a winner. Nice to walk around in. I did size up per someone’s review & am glad I did. I am very happy with these shorts"